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Author Topic: A new hero is born  (Read 1514 times)

ama

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A new hero is born
« on: August 17, 2008, 09:17:33 PM »

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=186#comments

"# HCNon 17 Aug 2008 at 5:50 pm

Scopie’s Law (see  http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Scopie's_Law ):

In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to
as a credible source loses you the argument immediately
 …and gets you laughed out of the room.
"

==>
http://www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5240&p=90463#p90279

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Boots under attack

by Deano on Sat May 24, 2008 1:30 pm
Boots, the high street chemist, is becoming the country's largest seller of quack medicine, according to Britain's leading scientific expert on alternative therapies.

Talking at the Hay literary festival today, Edzard Ernst, professor of complementary medicine at Exeter University, is to criticise the company for selling alternative medicines, in particular more than 50 homeopathic remedies, which are shown by clinical trials to be no more effective than sugar pills.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/ ... ayfestival

One of their justifications is that the NHS recognises homeopathy - which probably sounds convincing to many laypeople.
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Re: Boots under attack

by Blue Wode on Sat May 24, 2008 2:17 pm
Deano wrote:
One of their justifications is that the NHS recognises homeopathy - which probably sounds convincing to many laypeople.


It’s also worth remembering that back in 2005 the Project Manager at Boots - who is responsible for its range of homeopathic medicines - claimed that “due to confidentiality” the company was unable to share any information concerning research into its homeopathic products. At the same time, its Customer Care consultant recommended visiting the British Homeopathic Association’s website “for further information on the efficacy of this type of medicine”.

Read on…
http://www.randi.org/jr/200509/090905these.html#1

Interestingly, elsewhere in that link it says “If Boots do not remove these [homeopathic] products, they are abandoning principles for the sake of profit” – a point which Ernst is sure to drive home during his talk this afternoon.
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Re: Boots under attack

by Blue Wode on Sun May 25, 2008 7:19 pm
For those interested, the talk that Edzard Ernst gave yesterday is reviewed here:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ian ... lible.html
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Re: Boots under attack

by jdc on Tue May 27, 2008 2:12 pm
Deano wrote:
Boots, the high street chemist, is becoming the country's largest seller of quack medicine, according to Britain's leading scientific expert on alternative therapies.

Talking at the Hay literary festival today, Edzard Ernst, professor of complementary medicine at Exeter University, is to criticise the company for selling alternative medicines, in particular more than 50 homeopathic remedies, which are shown by clinical trials to be no more effective than sugar pills.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/ ... ayfestival

One of their justifications is that the NHS recognises homeopathy - which probably sounds convincing to many laypeople.

Haha, yes I read that piece - in response to Ernst's complaints that Boots were in breach of the RPS guidelines, didn't Boots' spokersperson say something about how 'the RPS issues ethical guidelines that tell us how to operate'. Answering a charge of a breach of a code-of-ethics by pointing out that there is a code-of-ethics? Very homeopathic.

'Principled' on the CiF articles Blue Wode links to is very, um, interesting. Apparently, medicines are worse than terrorism: "If extremist groups had been proven to cause as much death and destruction as the medicines you, Phaedra108, epidermoid and QuackWatch protect, I would be very concerned." Principled is also pro-homeopathy and anti-vaccination.
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Re: Boots under attack

by Jut on Tue May 27, 2008 5:00 pm
My girlfriend used to work at boots and some of the stuff I've heard is just shocking, considering that boots holds a position of trust over the public who seek advice over the counter.
Staff have to take courses with questions tailored to present alt.met and vitamins as viable alternatives to conventional medicine.
Questions such as
"Which of the following can be used to treat a cold or flu?
a) Cold and flu remedy
b) homeopathy
c) vitamin C
d) all of the above"
I'm paraphrasing but as soon as I can get hold of the material I'll be sure to leak it.
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Re: Boots under attack

by troubledjoe on Tue May 27, 2008 5:04 pm
Perhaps the wording was "Which of the following can be sold to treat a cold or flu ?"
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Re: Boots under attack

by Rich Scopie on Tue May 27, 2008 5:16 pm
jdc wrote:

'Principled' on the CiF articles Blue Wode links to is very, um, interesting. Apparently, medicines are worse than terrorism: "If extremist groups had been proven to cause as much death and destruction as the medicines you, Phaedra108, epidermoid and QuackWatch protect, I would be very concerned." Principled is also pro-homeopathy and anti-vaccination.


He also links to Whale.to, which is surely only a minor variation of Godwin's Law:

"In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately."

That obviously has the optional extra of ...and gets you laughed out of the room.



Cheers,

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Re: Boots under attack

by Ambrielle on Tue May 27, 2008 6:08 pm
I'll second that Rich.
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Re: Boots under attack

by MJ Simpson on Tue May 27, 2008 8:53 pm
When the boy was tiny and occasionally suffered from car sickness, my parents - sensible folk - bought a child car sickness remedy from Boots. It was a rubber band which, applied round the wrist, prevented car sickness apparently. I did try to point out that this was utter nonsense but my Mum and Dad - sensible folk, I remind you - were adamant that it must be real because it was bought from Boots.
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Re: Boots under attack

by Robert Carnegie on Wed May 28, 2008 4:31 am
Jut wrote:
"Which of the following can be used to treat a cold or flu?
a) Cold and flu remedy
b) homeopathy
c) vitamin C
d) all of the above"
I'm paraphrasing but as soon as I can get hold of the material I'll be sure to leak it.
Jut

Precise language is important. An unfrocked chiropractor can use a kick to the groin to "treat" a cold or flu. It will not be very effective, but if the customer wants it done and pays for it, who's bothered? A Boots counter assistant is more restricted and "can" sell, perhaps, only the most expensive product or treatment that begins with the same letter as what the customer thinks they've got.
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Re: Boots under attack

by MONK on Wed May 28, 2008 6:27 pm
When I was getting very close to a psychotic break a couple of years ago I ended up in Boots asking for something to help me sleep as I was at the end of my tether. I started panicking and my left arm started flapping up and down until my right arm grabbed it.

I can understand why they didn't want to give me sleeping tablets in that situation. But they did sell me fish oil tablets!!!!???!!!!
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Re: Boots under attack

by Elennaro on Wed May 28, 2008 6:37 pm
Present-day sleeping tablets are quite safe, you probably won't succeed in killing yourself with them.
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Re: Boots under attack

by MONK on Wed May 28, 2008 6:47 pm
So they were even more wrong than I thought!!!!

Actually when I managed to stutter out "well at least I will get a placebo effect from the fish oil tablets" I was told "Oh no. They are not a placebo!"

To be fair I might have been coming across as a bit scary at the time. I know I was scaring the bejeesus out of just about everyone else.
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Re: Boots under attack

by Dr* T on Wed May 28, 2008 7:51 pm
Rich Scopie wrote:

He also links to Whale.to, which is surely only a minor variation of Godwin's Law:

"In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately."

That obviously has the optional extra of ...and gets you laughed out of the room.



I hereby declare with the [non-existent] power vested in me, that the above statement become, from this day forth and until the end of the interweb, known as "Scopie's Law"*.

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Re: Boots under attack

by keithramsey on Thu May 29, 2008 1:17 am
Something strange is going on at Boots. For some reason that I don't propose to speculate about, most of their pharmacists seem to be young (under 30 at a guess) and presumably newly-qualified. That's probably a good thing if it means that they're up to date with the latest drugs and suchlike, but it can be a problem for old farts like me who want the medicines like Intal that we've been using for years but which they've never heard of. I'm not even going to mention the Boots pharmacist who was convinced that gentian violet was some kind of alternative herbal bollocks.

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Re: Boots under attack

by Robert Carnegie on Thu May 29, 2008 3:12 am
MJ Simpson wrote:
When the boy was tiny and occasionally suffered from car sickness, my parents - sensible folk - bought a child car sickness remedy from Boots. It was a rubber band which, applied round the wrist, prevented car sickness apparently. I did try to point out that this was utter nonsense but my Mum and Dad - sensible folk, I remind you - were adamant that it must be real because it was bought from Boots.

Having looked at the rubber bands previously, I found apparently effective relief from motion sickness on one car journey years ago with a colleague who's a bit bonkers driving, on Loch Lomond-side where the road goes (or did at the time) in and out of every little bay of the loch - but I did it by pressing with each thumb on the the other inside wrist, as far as I recall, which supposedly is where the bands press. This seems unlikely to stop important blood flow or to have any other significant physiological effect, but, I say again, I didn't feel so ill. Of course there were many other variables varying at the time.
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Re: Boots under attack

by wewillfixit on Thu May 29, 2008 11:02 am
I must admit to wearing the sickness bands when I was pregnant. I was feeling so dodgy I would have tried anything (and it was going on long past the normal morning sickness time). The sickness did get a bit better after I started wearing them, I should have taken them off at that point to see whether I had just started getting better on my own, but I hated being sick so much that I would rather stay ignorant than risk the sickness coming back.

Edit: Just checked this out on cochrane and they have a few reviews of acuppressure/wristbands for nausea and sickness

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

And there is one underway for motion sickness:

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html
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Re: Boots under attack

by nigelatkinson on Thu May 29, 2008 5:08 pm
keithramsey wrote:
Something strange is going on at Boots. For some reason that I don't propose to speculate about, most of their pharmacists seem to be young (under 30 at a guess) and presumably newly-qualified. That's probably a good thing if it means that they're up to date with the latest drugs and suchlike, but it can be a problem for old farts like me who want the medicines like Intal that we've been using for years but which they've never heard of. I'm not even going to mention the Boots pharmacist who was convinced that gentian violet was some kind of alternative herbal bollocks.


About 5 years ago I seem to remember hearing stories about Boots hoovering up most of that year's pharamacy graduates, by the simple means of offering them large salaries (30K + for starters, if the rumours were to be believed). Funnily, this was about the time independent pharmacists started to disappear from the high street . . .
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Re: Boots under attack

by bobrayner on Thu May 29, 2008 9:27 pm
nigelatkinson wrote:
keithramsey wrote:
Something strange is going on at Boots. For some reason that I don't propose to speculate about, most of their pharmacists seem to be young (under 30 at a guess) and presumably newly-qualified. That's probably a good thing if it means that they're up to date with the latest drugs and suchlike, but it can be a problem for old farts like me who want the medicines like Intal that we've been using for years but which they've never heard of. I'm not even going to mention the Boots pharmacist who was convinced that gentian violet was some kind of alternative herbal bollocks.


About 5 years ago I seem to remember hearing stories about Boots hoovering up most of that year's pharamacy graduates, by the simple means of offering them large salaries (30K + for starters, if the rumours were to be believed). Funnily, this was about the time independent pharmacists started to disappear from the high street . . .


If independent pharmacists can't afford to beat that wage it's not Boots' fault.

It seems unlikely, to me, that boots tried deliberately to corner the supply of something so fickle and so expensive as people.
A good pun is its own reword.
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Re: Boots under attack

by Robert Carnegie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:13 am
wewillfixit wrote:
I must admit to wearing the sickness bands when I was pregnant. I was feeling so dodgy I would have tried anything (and it was going on long past the normal morning sickness time). The sickness did get a bit better after I started wearing them, I should have taken them off at that point to see whether I had just started getting better on my own, but I hated being sick so much that I would rather stay ignorant than risk the sickness coming back.

Edit: Just checked this out on cochrane and they have a few reviews of acuppressure/wristbands for nausea and sickness

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

And there is one underway for motion sickness:

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

Unfortunately these interesting links seem to be for use by University of Edinburgh people only - is it legitimate to ask for an executive summary? Or more open links?
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Re: Boots under attack

by benb on Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:24 pm
Blue Wode wrote:
... Interestingly, elsewhere in that link it says “If Boots do not remove these [homeopathic] products, they are abandoning principles for the sake of profit” – a point which Ernst is sure to drive home during his talk this afternoon.


Corporations cannot have principles, at least not honestly. It's incompatible with capitalism.
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Re: Boots under attack

by bobrayner on Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:07 pm
benb wrote:
Blue Wode wrote:
... Interestingly, elsewhere in that link it says “If Boots do not remove these [homeopathic] products, they are abandoning principles for the sake of profit” – a point which Ernst is sure to drive home during his talk this afternoon.


Corporations cannot have principles, at least not honestly. It's incompatible with capitalism.


Then why do "principled" corporations thrive in their respective niches?

Principled corporations are only incompatible with "capitalism" if the people paying their bills - ie. the public - lack interest in principles. This is because the overheads of growing organic rice, being nice to stoats, &c add extra costs/delays/whatever which make the goods/services less appealing to the unprincipled customer.

However, customers nowadays are interested in many of these "principles" (even if sometimes the reasoning behind them is a bit shaky). Just look in your local supermarket - you'll find plenty of products trumpeting their fairtrade / organic / low-food-miles / no-sweatshops / sustainable origins; each of these products came from a company that took on some of the "principles" and is consequently able to sell its goods for a premium.

In this sense, capitalism is just trying to provide what people want. If consumers aren't really turned on by some principle that you think is important - causing that principle to be neglected by producers - then you should be blaming the consumers rather than capitalism.
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Re: Boots under attack

by benb on Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:52 pm
bobrayner wrote:
benb wrote:
Blue Wode wrote:
... Interestingly, elsewhere in that link it says “If Boots do not remove these [homeopathic] products, they are abandoning principles for the sake of profit” – a point which Ernst is sure to drive home during his talk this afternoon.


Corporations cannot have principles, at least not honestly. It's incompatible with capitalism.


Then why do "principled" corporations thrive in their respective niches?

Principled corporations are only incompatible with "capitalism" if the people paying their bills - ie. the public - lack interest in principles. This is because the overheads of growing organic rice, being nice to stoats, &c add extra costs/delays/whatever which make the goods/services less appealing to the unprincipled customer.

However, customers nowadays are interested in many of these "principles" (even if sometimes the reasoning behind them is a bit shaky). Just look in your local supermarket - you'll find plenty of products trumpeting their fairtrade / organic / low-food-miles / no-sweatshops / sustainable origins; each of these products came from a company that took on some of the "principles" and is consequently able to sell its goods for a premium.

In this sense, capitalism is just trying to provide what people want. If consumers aren't really turned on by some principle that you think is important - causing that principle to be neglected by producers - then you should be blaming the consumers rather than capitalism.


What I was trying to say was that corporations cannot say "these are our principles and we will stick to them" unless that position can be shown to be profitable to the shareholders. The only principle that a corporation can hold is to turn a profit. Under corporate law, it is illegal for executives to take any action that does not serve the long term goals of the corporation : maximising share value. So companies can talk about social responsibility and principles, but they cannot follow them as an end in themselves.

And capitalism doesn't really try and provide what people want, it tries to convince us to want what we don't really need.
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Re: Boots under attack

by bobrayner on Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:49 pm
benb wrote:
What I was trying to say was that corporations cannot say "these are our principles and we will stick to them" unless that position can be shown to be profitable to the shareholders. The only principle that a corporation can hold is to turn a profit. Under corporate law, it is illegal for executives to take any action that does not serve the long term goals of the corporation : maximising share value. So companies can talk about social responsibility and principles, but they cannot follow them as an end in themselves.


Well, er yes, you maximise share value by providing what people want (and preferably are willing to pay a premium for).
Well, that's half the story, the other half is keeping costs down...

benb wrote:
And capitalism doesn't really try and provide what people want, it tries to convince us to want what we don't really need.


Isn't that some kind of advertising / marketing, rather than capitalism? Capitalism is about capital, private ownership of resources and enterprises, and so on.

Anyway. Boots?

For better or for worse, Boots have found that lots of people want to buy homeopathic medicines, magnetic bracelets, or whatever. Perhaps Boots have a role in persuading people to buy this nonsense, but if Boots shut down tomorrow there would still be millions of people trying to buy magic amulets somewhere else.
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Re: Boots under attack

by badchemist2 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:55 am
Robert Carnegie wrote:
wewillfixit wrote:
I must admit to wearing the sickness bands when I was pregnant. I was feeling so dodgy I would have tried anything (and it was going on long past the normal morning sickness time). The sickness did get a bit better after I started wearing them, I should have taken them off at that point to see whether I had just started getting better on my own, but I hated being sick so much that I would rather stay ignorant than risk the sickness coming back.

Edit: Just checked this out on cochrane and they have a few reviews of acuppressure/wristbands for nausea and sickness

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

And there is one underway for motion sickness:

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

Unfortunately these interesting links seem to be for use by University of Edinburgh people only - is it legitimate to ask for an executive summary? Or more open links?


Links for you:
chemotherapy and nausea
post-op nausea
pregnancy and nausea
motion sickness

First 3 are pubmed, 4th in direct to paper as it doesn't seem to have made it there yet
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Re: Boots under attack

by Robert Carnegie on Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:25 am
badchemist2 wrote:
Links for you:
chemotherapy and nausea
post-op nausea
pregnancy and nausea
motion sickness

First 3 are pubmed, 4th in direct to paper as it doesn't seem to have made it there yet

Thank you! Yes, that one doesn't seem to be done yet?

Even if it's only a placebo, we may as well use it if it works. Now where's this P6 acurist point? I'm pressing next to my watch strap buckle.
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Re: Boots under attack

by wewillfixit on Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:49 pm
Robert Carnegie wrote:
wewillfixit wrote:
I must admit to wearing the sickness bands when I was pregnant. I was feeling so dodgy I would have tried anything (and it was going on long past the normal morning sickness time). The sickness did get a bit better after I started wearing them, I should have taken them off at that point to see whether I had just started getting better on my own, but I hated being sick so much that I would rather stay ignorant than risk the sickness coming back.

Edit: Just checked this out on cochrane and they have a few reviews of acuppressure/wristbands for nausea and sickness

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

And there is one underway for motion sickness:

http://carlin.lib.ed.ac.uk:2302/cochran ... frame.html

Unfortunately these interesting links seem to be for use by University of Edinburgh people only - is it legitimate to ask for an executive summary? Or more open links?


Oops sorry about that!
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Scopie's Law

by jdc on Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:59 pm
Rich Scopie wrote:
jdc wrote:

'Principled' on the CiF articles Blue Wode links to is very, um, interesting. Apparently, medicines are worse than terrorism: "If extremist groups had been proven to cause as much death and destruction as the medicines you, Phaedra108, epidermoid and QuackWatch protect, I would be very concerned." Principled is also pro-homeopathy and anti-vaccination.


He also links to Whale.to, which is surely only a minor variation of Godwin's Law:

"In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately."

That obviously has the optional extra of ...and gets you laughed out of the room.



Cheers,

Rich.

Well Wiki didn't buy it, but I've submitted to Urban Dictionary. The meme must live on.
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Re: Boots under attack

by wewillfixit on Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:22 pm
I thought this forum wasn't indexed by google? I just googled scopie's law, and this thread was the first result...

ETA - I suppose it is down to people linking to this thread with the relevant words?
Last edited by wewillfixit on Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boots under attack

by MJ Simpson on Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:31 pm
Robert Carnegie wrote:
badchemist2 wrote:
Links for you:
Even if it's only a placebo, we may as well use it if it works..


Well no, we may as well use an ordinary rubber band. Or just get the child to wear a magical 'no car-sickness' badge or give him a lucky pencil to hold or tell him he won't be car-sick as long as he holds Grandma's hand or...

I wouldn't be surprised at a placebo effect but that's no justification for wasting money on such rubbish.

"Use it if it works" is the homeopath's credo.
M Simpson
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Boots under attack

Moderator: stever
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35 posts • Page 3 of 3 • 123
Re: Boots under attack

by woodchopper on Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:32 pm
wewillfixit wrote:
I thought this forum wasn't indexed by google? I just googles scopie's law, and this thread was the first result...


Your'e right.

Maybe the Google turn off didn't survive the move.
My Extraordinary Claims blog

woodchopper
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Re: Boots under attack

by wewillfixit on Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:46 pm
woodchopper wrote:
wewillfixit wrote:
I thought this forum wasn't indexed by google? I just googles scopie's law, and this thread was the first result...


Your'e right.

Maybe the Google turn off didn't survive the move.


That's weird, it has gone now...
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.
Douglas Adams
English humorist & science fiction novelist (1952 - 2001)

wewillfixit
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Re: Boots under attack

by woodchopper on Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:07 pm
wewillfixit wrote:
woodchopper wrote:
wewillfixit wrote:
I thought this forum wasn't indexed by google? I just googles scopie's law, and this thread was the first result...


Your'e right.

Maybe the Google turn off didn't survive the move.


That's weird, it has gone now...


Still works for me.
My Extraordinary Claims blog

woodchopper
Tarantellla
 
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Re: Boots under attack

by jaap on Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:47 pm
woodchopper wrote:
wewillfixit wrote:
I thought this forum wasn't indexed by google? I just googles scopie's law, and this thread was the first result...


Your'e right.


Google hasn't spidered the forum. It has simply found some pages linking to it that mention Scopie's Law, and therefore offers that link as relevant. It does not show any preview text from it, nor offer a 'Cached' version, because the forum contents are not in the google database.

jaap
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Re: Boots under attack

by wewillfixit on Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:57 pm
Ah now I know why I was confused. It comes up on google.co.uk, but not on google.com which you linked to.
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.
Douglas Adams
English humorist & science fiction novelist (1952 - 2001)

wewillfixit
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 09:18:53 PM by ama »
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Kinderklinik Gelsenkirchen verstößt gegen die Leitlinien

Der Skandal in Gelsenkirchen
Hamer-Anhänger in der Kinderklinik
http://www.klinikskandal.com

http://www.reimbibel.de/GBV-Kinderklinik-Gelsenkirchen.htm
http://www.kinderklinik-gelsenkirchen-kritik.de
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